hyrcan

I have 2 daughters. I try hard NOT to dictate what they can wear or play with. My oldest wears jeans and a t-shirt every day. My youngest loves dresses and puts on my lipstick when I don't see. :)

But society still dictates: it tells them to wear their hair longer than boys (usually); there IS the expectation that they should be "sweet" and raised eyebrows when one of them acts out.

This is a great, thought-provoking post. Thank you.

Vered's last blog post..So, Another Guest Post

If I were to say "Women should only where skirts and heels and wear makeup, otherwise it's unladylike," you would be offended.

Yes, I would be offended... Simply because it should be WEAR skirts... not where. Where is "location"...

Too true. It drives my husband nuts that my son loves to wear his sister's dress up Cinderella dress. My son is 3 and just sees that it's blue! He also likes to nurse his toy dog, which hubby is a little disturbed by, but can admit that it's cute. A little habit my son picked up from his sister. I just enjoy watching both because it is so darn cute.

My daughter, on the other hand, he's always trying to encourage to not be too much the girly girl. Keeps telling her that she can't do certain things in dresses, which I agree with for some dresses, but not for ones that are ruined or fairly sturdy. Usual rule of how much play should be done in their best clothes.

He's getting there much of the time, though. Can't quite concede that it's okay for a little boy to enjoy playing with girl's toys, even though he's rarely around other boys to pick up their habits.

Stephanie's last blog post..Water: A California Story at San Diego Natural History Museum

I pity people like you. I bet you're unsatisfied woman. I bet you're either too ugly or too dumb to find a man that will make you feel like a REAL woman. Then, and only then you will realize, why women behave and think in a certain way. Different then men. Not worse, not better, just different.

Now, before you throw rocks in me I want a chance to prove my point. Like always there are exceptions, however, women tend to make decisions based on feelings rather than logic. Their whole concept of thinking is revolving around, "how i feel about something". While men tend to analyze, comparing experiences and drawing conclusions.
This is fundamental. The difference is hard coded.

These differences can be traced through all of our lives and it will become apparent, that women and men have different purposes. Again, there are exceptions of course.

Today women have all the rights that men have. Is there harassment? Yes, but only because of differences in thinking! It bothers me more that men don't stand up for a pregnant lady in the subway. I believe it's because of people like you , who try to reform our society in a way that should not be.

Bravo! I will admit I'm only 17, but I feel the discrimination as much as anyone. I wish other teenage girls would take a stance like I have. All they know is what is expected of them by society. It sickens me. Whenever I'm told I'm acting 'unladylike' my response is "good." Why should I act like a lady or in some cases a 'tomboy'? Why can't I just act/dress the way I want to. Just ME, an individual? Regardless of my sex.

Three things:

1. While I have to agree with you that women do tend to think in more emotional terms than men, you're wrong in stating that "their whole concept of thinking is revolving around 'how i feel about something'" is wrong. Women analyze, interpret, and look at things from multiple directions, including the logical. By stating that women react to things mostly from an emotional point of view, with exceptions, is simply incorrect. Emotion is just another way of looking at things, and it's not the predominant way of thinking in women's minds, much as logic isn't the predominant way of thinking in a man's mind.

2. As far as the pregnant woman thing goes: a man should stand for a pregnant woman on the bus not because of chivalry, but out of simple courtesy for another person's discomfort. Carrying an extra 50 lbs of mass concentrated on the abdomen is hard on a person, which is why both non-pregnant women and men should stand for pregnant women whenever the need arises.

3. Finally, I'd like to address that despite your attempts to back up your position as being fair (read: "not worse, not better, just different"), your chauvinism is glaring. When you assume that just because a woman brings up an issue of sexism in our society, that she is dissatisfied, ugly, or dumb and needs a man in her life to make her "realize" your point of view, you betray your own emotional biases. I suppose you're just the exception to your own rule that men are indeed inherently logical beings.

@Vered: With today's choices it's really hard to avoid gender stereotyping. Right from the start you're choices are Pink or Blue, beyond that it gets even harder. The first step in dealing with any problem is to start thinking about it. I'm happy this post seems to have done that.

@Anonymous #1: hehe. Spellcheck fails me again. I should really not post in the middle work day so I can proofread better. And maybe re-watch The Impotence of Proofreading By Taylor Mali. But I needed to vent a little after seeing a particularly annoying example of this going on at a store near my office.
(I corrected it now in the post)

@Stephanie: I'm glad he's getting there though, every small steps helps out in the long run. It is interestingly lopsided a little though, as you point out, it's ok to promote not being too much a "girly girl" (as long as they grow out of being a tomboy), but the world will end for some people if a boy has the slightest interest in playing with a dollhouse, or a play kitchen.

@Anonymous #2: I say Bravo to you! Stay strong and continue taking your stance. Be yourself, and importantly, for yourself. And something to think about, everything we do effects those around us, whether we know about it or not. Your stance may give that little bit of strength someone else needed. And know you are not alone.

I agree! I heard my mother in law say yesterday, "I wish he would fix the dryer vent, thats not something a woman can do." and I thought about fixing it. I can do anything a man can do, except maybe lift half my body weight.

@hex: Oh, hex... I have to say I laughed out loud when I read your comment. First, you may want to rethink how you debate an issue. Throwing out insults in your opening paragraph then asking for a chance to prove your point before I "throw rocks" at you is not a healthy way to have a conversation about any topic.

All that aside. I don't think you have the issue quite right. It's not an issue of trying to repress the unique primal instincts that either of the sexes have. I honestly think that would be the worst thing to do. We're talking about the implied social requirements of what is acceptable for a "male" or "female" to do. What is expected of them. They they are not allowed to do. A boy must play with trucks and guns, where as women should be playing with dolls, never the reverse. This is something constructed by our society not an inherit instinct.

Also as for your attempt at belittling me for bringing up sexism and gender stereotyping, I'll refer you to Anonymous #3 response on the matter.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm not an "unsatisfied woman...too ugly or too dumb to find a man."

I, in fact, am a man.

@Anonymous #3: Thank you for your wonderful response, I think it's much better than what I can come up with at this hour. ;)

@Rina: It certainly IS something a woman can do! It's just a matter of knowing how, and last I checked that's got very little to do with if you have matching chromosomes or not...

ITA - I have heard so many times "but it is a man's job" - usually related to garden work or DIY - my darling hubby encourages me to help him with both DIY and car maintainance (not so much the garden stuff because he realises I can kill a plant simply by looking at it!). And guess what - I love doing stuff round the house and fixing the car!

Women are just as good as men at many things (maybe saving anything that involves sheer physical strength - most men are going to be stronger than the vast majority of women due to mother nature). But equally, most men can cook, clean and care for a baby just as well as most women. Breastfeeding that baby may be tricky, if not darn well near impossible, but they can still care for a child!

I only have daughters (4 of them), but I do my best not to enforce gender sterotypes - yes some of them have long hair, but others have short (their choice how short their haircut), one prefers to wear skirts and dresses, others love their Jeans.

And hobbies are decided on interests - I have one daughter who goes to junior hockey classes, but also loves to knit... go figure!

Actually, it is spelled right. I have no clue what you're complaining about. You changed the "wear" to "where" in the comment.

@LotteW: I love doing pretty much anything, I work with computers, but also know how to sew and knit, and love to cook.

@Anonymous #4: Oops, my fault, forgot to mention that I corrected it. It really was "where" previously. :)

28 years ago,as a new mother, I was absolutely determined that my child would not be stereotyped by gender. I bought her dolls, trucks, cars, kitchen stuff, dinosaurs-- you name it. One day when she was around two or so, I walked into her room and she was playing with the cars and trucks--- she had them all in a circle with her dolls and other stuffed animals, with plates in front of them playing "tea party." I've never worried again for a single minute about gender appropriateness; children are human beings, with all the diverse gifts and burdens that comes with, and fully capable of knowing who and what they are and what they desire in this life. I'm still so happy that I gave my child the chance to show me that she's a girly-girl, but ONLY because it allowed me to know her better, not because it turned out any certain way.

Hi Hyrcan,

When I was a little girl, I loved to play with my brothers trucks, but I also played with dolls, often giving the dolls a ride in the trucks. Although there still is a lot of stereotyping in our society, I see it is getting better. Thank goodness we're not stuck in the 40's.

Barbara Swafford's last blog post..FEFF - Feeling The Joy

Hang on, what? The point of this is not to say that men and women are exactly alike in every way. The point is that there are plenty of things that are not "hard coded" (although these things are not always as such - I know plenty of guys that are "feel-thinkers" and plenty of women, such as myself, that are analytical thinkers) that people grow up into due to gender stereotyping and gender-based expectations.

I have that opinion myself although I have not been able to express it as clearly as you. May you go forward in your beliefs...

Skydromakk's last blog post..Guys can be feminists !

Interesting post. I agree most parts that you one should be able to his or herself. But I think social norms aren't just pushed because of society and discrimination but also from a spiritual point. Obviously boys and girls are different, and there is a reason for such. We do expect women to be nurturing and men to be protectors, but I think it builds a compatible relationship between the two genders later in life. No everyone will not marry, or even be heterosexual but I think that each was made for the possibility of such. Honestly I don't want my daughter to act as a "boy", because I do believe that it is my role as her mother to nurture her in a way that she can feel comfortable as a woman. Do I believe women should have grow up and have children? Yes. Men as well.

Gender roles are needed. We are not the same, nor were we meant to be. But to each his or her own.

(note: I corrected your website, it was missing an 's' ~ hyrcan )

@HJP: There's a important distinction to be made here, and I think you highlight it well. Gender stereotyping isn't about turning girls into boys, or boys into girls, it isn't about turning them into some non-gender. It's about letting them become themselves without needing to force, or be forced, into some societal construct of what they should be.

@Barbara: It is getting better, slowly, there is still much work to be done. We can look back at history and see how far we have come that is for sure, and it is refreshing to do.

@Anonymous #5: That's exactly right, there are so many things that we have created ourselves and is woven into our society that have very little to do with any primal instincts that may be genetically hard coded into us. It's difficult though for people active in a society to be able to see that society's flaws. Especially when they are subtle as something like gender stereotyping. It's not a instant thing. It's not a single act of stereotyping that causes the problem, it is, in my case, 34 years of this pressure that I now fight against.

@Skydromakk: Thanks, but I've read your recent post on the matter... don't sell yourself short. :) Plus, quoting Dawkins always wins points from me. lol

@Tish: Like I mention to HJP above, this is about forcing someone into a mold, not repressing what makes us unique. Would you love your daughter any less if she were to "act as a 'boy'?" I would assume not. If she were acting like a boy, would that make her any less of a woman? Unlikely. I know plenty of people who don't fit the social stereotype of being "ladylike" who are fine loving parents.

We are not the same, nor were we meant to be, could not be a truer statement.

Brilliant post and to Rina, you could lift half your body weight had you been told since you were born that you were supposed to be strong and the idea was fostered in you. Just a thought!

@Prometheus: Thank you, and your right, people often don't realize what this sort of conditioning does to people. And Gender stereotyping is a conditioning. Day after day, having certain, ideas that the current society came up with, pressed upon you, like a mantra. It works it self deep, so it goes unnoticed.

I laughed out loud when i read Hex's post, and your response.

I never thought your post was trying to turn girls into boys and vice versa. It's letting both sexes know they don't have to ONLY play with dolls or trucks, and it's ok to play with either, or both.

I'm in the computer industry and a lot of my male friend's girlfriends are amazed that I can do what I do. (I'm female btw) The reactions I get make me think that these women never once thought that computing was something they COULD do, so they never tried. I just get doe eyed stares of amazement back when I attempt to describe my job...

I also have 2 young girls. They are both somewhat tomboy-ish, i suppose you could describe them. They both love it outside, playing in dirt. They both love toy cars and only have a few dolls from relatives. My older girl loves a couple of her skirts, but will still play like any boy does. I hope they grow up to know that they can do any job they wish, and never ever ever as adults give someone that doe eyed look

As a fairly progressive, liberal woman who is not fond of gender stereotyping, I don't think these kind of articles are a step in the right direction. The line "what's next...Men getting together and choosing to talk out their problems versus fighting?" Doesn't help your cause much, either. I know you were being facetious, but there you're enforcing gender stereotypes even in an article that attempts to break them. I tend to agree with the rather trollish post above - Genders think differently. And that should be celebrated. People don't need to be automatons who have varied, gender indiscriminate tastes any more than they need to be automatons who have singular, gender-specific tastes. It takes all sorts. The boys who like dolls will like dolls whether mommy snatches them away or not and I think calling it a problem gives it more credit and attention than it needs. Start small, raise your own children the way you feel they should be raised and let other people explore what's comfortable for them and what makes them feel fulfilled. As the children become adults they will branch out from their parents if they really feel something is right - we see it all the time, especially in things like gender differences, religion and social issues.

If we make parents miserable by guilting them into doing something they don't want to do - like encouraging their son to take ballet, something I'm sure makes many fathers uncomfortable, then we won't have a happier, more accepting society, we'll have a generation of miserable parents. Which doesn't help anything.

Appreciate.

Well, didn't you just spark a flurry of strong responses? You go! Seriously, I have 2 girls, 1 boy. There were trucks and Barbies in the house, with no inference (subtle or blatant) on who should play with what. I just supplied the toys, and let them go. The girls played with the Barbies, and my son played with the trucks. Because they picked up the sterotypes somewhere else? I don't think so, because this is before they went off to school, and I was a stay at home mom.

It is interesting how even the most rational person can slip up. The Urbane Lion was talking about how he never misses his son's soccer game and when his son has a son who hopefully plays soccer, he won't miss those games either. My response? "EXCUSE ME???!!!!" Took the Lion a moment or two to figure out what he said, under pressure of me glowering at him, but when he did he was absolutely horrified with himself, and spent the rest of the drive home berating himself on his own subconcious sexism. Should he have a grand-daughter, and should she choose to play soccer, he will of course be attending all her games!

Urban Panther's last blog post..Yep, tastes good

@Alyosha: I'm sorry you don't feel that the last lines of my post were facetious or ironic enough to not harm my case...

Though, I'm a bit confused by your post. As someone who is not fond of gender stereotyping, and who feels articles like my post are not steps in the right direction, what then do you think would be a step in the right direction?

Is it, as you say, raise my own children the way you feel they should be raised, letting others do what they like? As someone without children, yet still suffering from the world that gender stereotyping has created, I find that step rather short sighted.

I'm also confused as to who there can be a step in the right direction, if you feel it's not a problem at all.

As for the differences between the genders, as I've stated above in the comments, I completely agree. There are differences between the genders. Those differences by every right should be celebrated, but the issue of Gender Stereotyping is not one of the uniqueness of the genders. Gender Stereotyping is an issue with the constructs created by our current society that we impose on the genders. This is often a confusing issue, as much of the stereotyping is created by distorting common unique aspects of the genders and then applying them to everyone of that gender.

Also, if getting people (not just parents) to think about gender stereotyping, or as in my example which you misstate support their child's interest in something that doesn't fit the stereotype ("encourage you're son's interest in ballet" -from my post) is "guilting them into doing something they don't want to do," I think that they should quite frankly re-examine their values.

I would also like to highlight that for years people ignored several other discriminatory social issues, none of which where made better until people actively worked to eliminate them.

@ Anonymous #6: Thank you, I'm glad you appreciated it.

@Urban Panther: Thanks! :) I'm glad I could still spark strong responses, I'm rather out of practice.

That's a good point, like many stereotypes, they are often based on something observed, the differences of the genders as people have highlighted in the comments perhaps, the problem is when we restrict people to those stereotypes. Though, I have to wonder, how much television might they have seen around the time they were playing with these toys?

The Urbane Lion can take some comfort that no ones perfect :) Your experience highlights how subtle Gender Stereotyping can be. We often don't even realize it going on. I know I've caught myself doing it. But talking about it, getting people to think about it, that's what helps. It's not an answer but a first step.

I still have a hard time breaking gender stereotypes, even with my seemingly forward-thinking friends. Just yesterday I had a girl friend insist on calling her male roommate to help her carry some heavy boxes into the house, even when I offered to help her myself, because she just "needed a guy" to do it. She didn't listen to my protests, until I simply picked up the larger of the boxes and carried it into her house and up to her room. Her guy roommate came out to find no work for him. It certainly wasn't upsetting enough for any kind of confrontation, but I have to say, I was a little offended that she assumed I couldn't/wouldn't help because I'm a girl.

I actively protest any insistance, even semi-joking, that men are needed for certain activities. Unless those activities are writing something in the snow or getting something out of the men's room (though at my school, we don't even have to worry about that, because all the bathrooms are unisex).

@Jewcakes: Seemingly small things like just picking the box up and doing it yourself can have more impact than you may realize. The issue of how effective Gender Stereotyping has been is a testament that the subtle approach to things can certainly have pretty big impact.

Also, great music! I'm really loving the sound. :)

I don't like to be put in a box of gender stereotyping. I am a woman, I don't think society is equal in the realm of male/female relationships and I wish it would change. I do think it revolves around child "duties." I would never be totally fulfilled as a mom. That is just one role I have. I have other creative outlets besides my children.

Yes, people seem to be unconscious of their rascism and sexism. It takes a lot of energy to change and root it out.

Ellen Wilson's last blog post..Freelance Business Burnout

@Ellen Wilson: It's when people think that's all you are capable of, or should be allowed to do...or for that matter expected to do. "Oh you're a women, so when you going to stop what you're doing breed?" It's insulting. It's repugnant. And we continue like it's ok... as you say we seem to be unconscious of it.

Talking about it, bringing it to the surface is the first step of change... but it will take a lot of work by all of us to sort it out.

I'm just glad there's quite a few people who have though about it before.

I have no problem with the article but.
aren´t the same WOMEN that encourage this? "MOLD", I mean from the tough guy, provider, protector, part sensisitive, with money .......... ( male/female relationships )
Naturally boys learn THAT´S the way to go ( A MOLD), so unless that expectation is ERASED, don´t hold your hopes very high.

Thanks for the interesting article, I love this site

Интересная статья, автору огромное спасибо за такой интересный сайт.